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[personal profile] jack
I've bashed my head on this before but not got a specific answer. Now I read through it in some more detail.

Summary

In West Wing episode 1, Josh insults some evangelical christian leaders. In a meeting trying to resolve this, the following happens.

* One of them proposes a radio address (presumably by the president) on a topic important to them, including public morals, school prayer or pornography. Apparently meaning "people in school should not have access to condoms", "people in school should be forced to perform christian prayer" and "we don't quite know what we want you to do but we're very upset about pornography".

* There is a muddle of people speaking at once, and he cuts in again, saying, "I'd like to discuss why we hear so much talk about the First Amendment coming out of this building, but no talk at all about the First Commandment."

* He says, "The First Commandment says 'Honor thy Father'."

* Toby breaks in, and says that's wrong, that's the third commandment. He is very long-suffering.

* He says, what is the first then?

* The president enters the room and quotes: "I am the Lord your God. Thou shalt worship no other God before me."

Analysis

I'm fairly sure the intended impression is, talk show guy spoke without thinking and screwed up something basic, Toby and the president correct him.

But firstly, the first commandment seems SO basic, it's hard to see how he could get it wrong. Whether or not he's a good Christian overall, quoting the commandments, especially the first one, seems like the sort of thing he'd do all the time.

Secondly, when I first heard it, I assumed this was "honor your father and mother", but now I wonder if it's supposed to be honoring *God* thy father. Although that doesn't quite fit any of the specific sentences either.

I'm not sure if the commandment he was quoting was supposed to be directly related to the previous discussion or not. Either of the possibilities doesn't seem directly relevant to the school stuff, but it's possible it is in a way that's only familiar if you know the usual arguments people make.

Several people point out that all the people involved have *different* traditional commandment numbering. Toby is Jewish. The christian leaders are protestant. And the president is catholic. I assume in America the protestant version is widely known and often considered canonical? I spent some time on wikipedia checking the different traditions for how to break up the commandments into ten.

But that doesn't seem to fit much better. The president could be quoting the protestant version (or possibly a slightly abbreviated catholic version?)

There's no way to make "honor thy father and mother" into 1 or 3, it's 5 for both protestants and jews (and 4 for catholics).

It could instead be "have no other god" or "don't take God's name in vain" but that doesn't quite fit, either the numbers or the quote.

My best guess is that someone wrote an exchange that worked, probably based on the traditional protestant numbering[1]. And then it got edited for various reasons, and ended up in a version which sounded good but didn't actually make sense.

The best alternate explanation is (a) Christian leader guy genuinely didn't know what the first commandment was (or forgot in the heat of the moment) (b) Toby was trolling by deliberately making something up, knowing no-one could call him on it as he had a different numbering anyway (c) the president (an intellectual catholic) knew the confusion of the numbering, but quoted a first commandment that would be expected to protestants and wasn't exactly wrong by his own tradition.

But to me that seems too complicated, if all that was supposed to be there, there'd be more indication. The mistake would have been one where it's more clear how he came to make a mistake. Toby would have sounded different if he was blowing smoke than if he was correcting people. There'd be some acknowledgement that SOMEONE would have known the first commandment, that this isn't exactly an obscure piece of theological trivia the president researched.

[1] West Wing does much better at research than most shows, but they seem to research a particular topic, it still seems like minor things not the main theme of an episode get overlooked sometimes.

Transcript: http://www.westwingtranscripts.com/search.php?flag=getTranscript&id=1

Date: 2017-06-19 05:56 pm (UTC)
seekingferret: Word balloon says "So I said to the guy: you never read the book yet you go online and talk about it as if--" (Default)
From: [personal profile] seekingferret
Yeah, it's a problem scene. I wrote fixit fic once for [community profile] purimgifts http://archiveofourown.org/works/673507

It is strange on the whole- I know a lot of Christians who don't know the Commandments, but in my experience fundamentalist Christians tend not to be in that category. So John Van Dyke getting it wrong to start is baffling, especially since "So much talk about the First Amendment and so little about the First Commandment" sounds like the kind of soundbite one-liner that he's probably used a thousand times as part of a prepared speech.

And then Toby getting the number of Honor Thy Father and Mother wrong is equally wrongfooting, when we consider that his Temple attendance is frequent and predictable enough that in "Take This Sabbath Day" Sam can know that Toby will reliably be in Temple on Saturday morning.


The only answer it brooks is that Aaron Sorkin does not know his Bible, Aaron Sorkin thinks incredibly poorly of evangelical Christians, and the scene sets up John Van Dyke as a strawman for Jed Bartlett to take down, and then Sorkin manages to bungle the takedown anyway. It's not the only time, either. In "The Day Before", Sorkin has Toby bungle the term for the days before Yom Kippur when Jews seek forgiveness.

Date: 2017-06-20 04:33 pm (UTC)
liv: cup of tea with text from HHGttG (teeeeea)
From: [personal profile] liv
... Is that actually a double meaning between bat kol and the fandom sense of voice of God? Because that's really really clever!

Date: 2017-06-20 04:41 pm (UTC)
seekingferret: Word balloon says "So I said to the guy: you never read the book yet you go online and talk about it as if--" (Default)
From: [personal profile] seekingferret
That's probably cleverer than I had in mind, but it's been several years since I wrote this and I don't remember.

Date: 2017-06-19 06:12 pm (UTC)
mtbc: photograph of me (Default)
From: [personal profile] mtbc
if all that was supposed to be there, there'd be more indication — I share your reasoning here, I think it's generally a show where if you pay attention to the more obvious explicit stuff you pretty much get what they intended.