jack: (Default)
Aha! I hoped I'd find someone talking about that QI episode and here it is.

http://www.qi.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=10008&start=12&sid=8da3f18e501905ad74133159e6526839

(Worryingly, MY post is now practically the top hit for the subject.)

Thoughts:

* I don't blame QI. Although its a shame I think they were misleading, the look on Alan Davies face when he gets a "do you know the obvious" question wrong to flashing and buzzing is worth it

* And he lost about 30 points guessing wrongly (the highest score was about 2, the lowest, about -30) so it didn't make any difference.

* And he was successfully funny, which is the real point.

* There's a few more nuggests. The CIA thinks there are fifty states, and you would think they have grim-faced men in charge of collecting this sort of intelligence.

* The Secretary of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts has this to say: "Massachusetts, like Pennsylvania, Virginia, and Kentucky, is called a 'Commonwealth'. Commonwealths are states." He seems like the kind of person that ought to know.

* If the question could be phrased in such a way as to ask whether they are *called* states (a bit like asking how many countries are kingdoms, perhaps) then 46 could be the best answer.

* However, I don't think 46 is the pedantic answer. It's the answer at a very very specific level of pedantry. Sufficiently pedantic to be aware that four of the states are not entitled states, and consider that more important than what the most obvious and useful answer is. But insufficiently pedantic to consider that they are, in fact, states, and thus the literally correct answer, whether they're also commonwealths or not, is 50.

* I have a love/hate relationship with that level of pedantry. I lived in it for a while (some would say between the ages of 4 and 21). I have a lot of sympathy -- it's a genuine effort to spread correctness and knowledge of obscure topics. However, I also feel obliged to help combat it, and expand people's perceptions into more pedantic and more helpful responses.

* And, while googling, I show its not universal, but intelligent, knowledgeable people do give the 46 answer.
jack: (Default)
The other thing was the old chestnut about how many US states there are. The question is confused because several of them are commonwealths. I ignored this trivia question for ages, not knowing anything about it, but when it came up there, I finally felt impelled to look up a definitive answer.

Before that, I couldn't even have told you the traditional number with confidence. For the record, there are:

* 50 entities commonly referred to as states, including Alaska and Hawaii not contiguous with the rest
* DC
* Puerto Rico
* Some incorporated territories (mainly inhabited atols)
* Some unincorportated territories (mainly uninhabited atols)
* Some regions that may overlap with an above case (water, indian reservations, etc)

People often seem to think there are 52 states. Perhaps because 50 sounds too round a number. There are a couple of suggestions for why this is. (1) People remembered Alaska and Hawaii, but thought they were as well (2) That's how many cards there are in a deck.

I certainly suffered from the second factual false friend :)

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread212402/pg1 has a humorous description of the situation, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_divisions_of_the_United_States a more sober one.

However, the "trick" question is about the states.

How many US states are there in the USA?

This typically crops up in trivia questions and the like. It generally goes something like,

Person A: How many US states are there in the USA?
Person B: 50
Person A: Ha ha! You're wrong! [1, 2, 3, or 4] of them are Commonwealths!

And sometimes you get:

Person C: Ha ha! No, you're wrong!

QI stopped at line three. (Did I remember that correctly?) But I think I disagree, I think its best to say there are 50. Although, of course, if anyone ever asks the question, the Commonwealth of Virginia had better be the first thing out of your mouth if you guess that's what they meant, or they'll ignore your citations and consider you an idiot for the next week.

As I understand it, "state" was originally referring to a political entity the way "country" does. The articles of independence talk about severing ties from the state of Britain.

I use Virginia as an example. There seem to be two possibilities.

(1) Virginia is a commonwealth, not a state, although shares all properties with a US State.
(2) People are fooled into believing in false dichotomy that it must be a commonwealth OR a state, the Commonwealth of Virginia is a state the way the Kingdom of Great Britain is a country.

Or possibly somewhere in between. However, the second case looks most convincing to me.

Evidence

As far as I can see, the evidence that Commonwealth of Virginia can be described as a US State is:

* It was a state in the sense the framers of the constitution were thinking of, a political entity
* It signed the Articles of Confederation that referred to the thirteen uniting units as states
* The constitution of the Commonwealth of Virginia refers to itself as a state in at least one section
* It is one of the entities having all the rights and responsibilities of a state as described in the US constitution
* It is commonly referred to as a State, official documents mentioning US States don't have to add "and commonwealths"

And the evidence that it isn't a state:

* It doesn't use "State" in its official title, whereas other states do.

It comes down to the meaning of the words. I think the meaning I'm thinking of for "state" is the only reasonable one in the context, and normally intended. I think "commonwealth" is more fuzzy, to some extent it describes entities having some philosophy, but a lot it just refers to several sets of entities that have come to be identified in that way. Like, if you ask "How many kingdoms are there," you might have to ask "Do you meant, how many countries technically ruled by a monarch? Or how many countries called 'kingdom'?"

If so, it sounds to me like the Commonwealths mentioned are definitely *also* states. So mentioning this distinction is sensible, but "50" is the only correct answer.

However, I've probably missed *something*, possibly something important. Can anyone add anything? Does the constitution treat them in any way differently (I thought I remembered that it did, but couldn't find anything.)

ETA: Followup post here

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