Ideal body image

[jack]

Finally, two too many people are on my friendslist compaining about other people's attempts to help weight loss made me think of this. Many people are overweight and need to do something about it, this is unarguable and not what I want to discuss.

But there's also the strange thing that the ideal image seems to be way too thin. It used to be the case that fat was seen as beautiful, because it meant you were rich and had enough to eat, whereas poor people weren't and didn't[1].

Will we experience a resurgence of this? Certainly probably the richest people tend to do office work and not have spare time, which isn't a recipe for staying in shape. On the other hand, I can think of a few reasons for the status quo:

* Maybe success correlates with self-control correlates with body image
* It's an overreaction to people being overweight. So much effort is put into losing weight people forget the goal is a healthy weight, and try to continue to lose weight afterwards.
* It's just self-perpetuating. Standards of beauty get reinforced because everyone tries to live up to them, so it takes a long time for anything else to take hold
* Maybe it's a complete myth. Maybe no-one actually does like looking at skeletally thin people at all, but fashion magazines are just print them anyway because they're really stupid or in a modern art rotting cow way .

[1] Or so I've always heard. I haven't looked for a historical cite to confirm that.

Comments

[mobbsy.livejournal.com]

In the West, there's currently a correlation between being overweight and low income.

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I guess that would explain it. Though I'm not sure exactly why:

* Boring food?
* Less gym time?
* Less scheduling of time?

[mobbsy.livejournal.com]

From what I can tell, although the fact is undisputed the mechanism is still being investigated. There's various cohort studies around testing hypotheses, but I can't find much of a consensus.

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

Fair enough, thank you. I should check more before I post.

[nakedtoes.livejournal.com]

This isn't the be all and end all (is that right?), but it's a lot more expensive to buy a couple of chicken breasts, some vegetables and some exciting fruit like pineapple for dessert than it is to buy a frozen pizza and some chocolate mousse. Of course, if you buy Pizza Express pizza and some expensive Taste the Difference type profiterole thing that's probably more expensive again, but arguably you wouldn't be buying that on a low income either.

[mair_in_grenderich]

buying healthy food is often more expensive, I think (fruit&veg expensive, brown bread, ...)

also ignorance factors in, which is correlated, not just that people don't realise that what they are eating is rubbish, but that they don't know for example how easy it is to make something healthier (home-made casserole instead of microwave food, or something)

[feanelwa.livejournal.com]

Healthy food is more expensive, but more importantly it's perceived as being even more expensive than that, and also as being posh. Also, many poor people smoke, and it's difficult to taste and enjoy food that isn't salty and loaded with MSG if you smoke. There's also the problem that once you get intestines full of partially digested meat and grease, you feel hungry, because it sticks round the edges and doesn't let everything else through, and when hungry, of course salt and energy is the thing you feel hungry for first. And if you eat healthily when all the other poor people you know eat shit, they accuse you of being posh and clever and having self esteem, and in this world those are insults, and treat you like crap about it. And all the places that poor people hang around in - pubs, clubs, shopping malls - serve unhealthy fatty sugary fizzy food and drink, and a paltry selection of gone-off fruit and stomach-destroying orange juice to put on a show of caring. So then all your poor friends hang around in these places eating crap, and you get hungry and you have two choices - go and buy something else healthy, come back and find they've decided you're a snob and gone off somewhere else without telling you, or eat it too.

[feanelwa.livejournal.com]

Very few people actually do like looking at skeletally thin people, but a lot of people like having an excuse to treat each other as inferior.

I don't think being overweight will become fashionable again until it becomes a sign of monetary wealth again. Part of why being thin is fashionable now is because if you're poor, you eat junk food and slob around your house all day because somebody decided we need so many extra houses that we can't possibly want places for people to run around; if you're rich, you eat fresh fruit and vegetables (which are more expensive than junk food, thanks EU) and pay to go to the gym.

Of course this is all bullshit, because I'm going to destroy the fashion and "beauty" industry.

[uisgebeatha.livejournal.com]

I don't think skeletal can ever be attractive. I'm sure guys like curvier women because they look less like they're about to blow away in the breeze. I was overweight at school, though not excessively so, and when I took up yoga last year I was still technically overweight according to the BMI, because my muscles were all taut.

Standards of beauty get reinforced because everyone tries to live up to them

Mmm, I can see what you mean. I never felt I had to live up to any kind of generic image of beauty, because that's just a sheep mentality. As it is, I weigh 9 and a half stone and I'm quite happy with my body image. (And I still eat like a horse :P)

Mmm, I can see what you mean. I never felt I had to live up to any kind of generic image of beauty

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

Maybe not compared to everyone else, but think of the wedding. Everyone wore dresses and suits, no? Why? Because it's arbitrary convention that that makes you look (a) pretty and (b) smartly dressed. How is that not living up to a generic image?

It's just that you don't ruin your body trying to achieve stupid and counterproductive images, I think we all are definitely influenced.

Re:

[uisgebeatha.livejournal.com]

Heh, quite right. I think there's probably a lot of unwritten conventions and generic images to adhere to when I think about it. Perhaps we should throw off the shackles of society's silly rules and go to formal events in fancy dress. Now that would really be an icebreaker ^_^

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

*My* formal event *is* http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/cusfs/veizla.html

Black tie or fancy dress. Smart fancy dress is normal, but not required. It makes sense to me, though I admit would be strange in a more formal formal situation such as... um... people who have to wear a suit to work :)

Perhaps we should throw off the shackles of society's silly rules

On atriec's lj there's been much discussion that we *do* need arbitrary rules. For instance, nudity/intimacy taboos -- it's useful to have some, whatever they are, whether they're personal or universal, so you can break them to show becoming closer to someone.

We're like those birds with elaborate plumage and dances, you have to show some effort. Some amount of effort is ridiculously too much, but would society function without any?

[uisgebeatha.livejournal.com]

*looks* Ooh, that looks...er...silly, but fun! :)

Hmm, yes there should probably be rules, but it's so hard to decide on rules and taboos when there are so many people blurring boundaries and breaking the rules and whatnot. As for showing effort, I suppose we all have to, but if we didn't make an effort, we'd be on the same level as lazy students, and that would not do! :P

looks* Ooh, that looks...er...silly, but fun! :)

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

LOL. And that doesn't have the email where I explain all the customs for first-timers. It is by far best when you know everyone, then it is a very good party. It's not *that* silly, honest, just a dinner with a few customs, eg. answering the challenge, and the new Reeve chasing the old one round the room 12' orange scarves flying.

The ceremony to raise the new sun is quite silly.

t's so hard to decide on rules and taboos when there are so many people blurring boundaries

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

Fortunately, the taboos occur naturally, so we don't have to decide :)

[senji.livejournal.com]

Some skeletally thin women are quite cute in an "aaargh, mustn't breathe because they'll break if I'm not careful" sort of way, but that doesn't make it a plausible lifestyle choice for the other 99.9999%.

There are better roads to cute :).

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

Some particularly but not painfully thin women work out very well, from a pure aesthetic perspective: they're often quite fit, and I think it also subconsciously emphasises their breasts. But it's not that everyone should be like that, just that some thin people are pretty.

[uisgebeatha.livejournal.com]

*nods* Sometimes I find thin women attractive, in an athletically-fit kind of way, but I prefer to see curves on the whole. And bony bits sticking out are really quite a turnoff. While I'll never quite fit into the category of 'elfin' (my massive hips and chest put paid to that) I'll say I'm slim and leave it at that, because if I lost more weight I might actually blow away! :)

[sunflowerinrain.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's attractive (thin women in films and tv make me shudder), but someone pointed at an lj community for skin-covered skeleton worshippers. Don't ask me where, because I looked once and I try not to think about it.

I'm definitely fat though, as in 20 kilos over optimum :(

[uisgebeatha.livejournal.com]

Gosh, there are LJ communities out there promoting that? That's terrible!

I'm definitely fat though, as in 20 kilos over optimum
At my peak I think I was 10 kilos or so over the ideal weight, but I don't think beauty can be measured just by stepping on the scales. I'm sure you're a pretty person no matter what your weight. :)

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

But take note, there's *one*. There's one lj for just about every kink or pervertion. Most people don't actually find that extreme attractive.

[lizzip.livejournal.com]

Actually, there's a rather large network of pro-anorexia/bulimia/ED-NOS LJ communities; searching for the interest "pro-ana" will give you a list of most of them.

No real point to this comment, other than "there's a good deal more than one" :(

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

For a while I was a member of pro-scurvy, just because of the name. But when I realised I couldn't be sure it was a spoof I got out :)

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

But most appear to be for people who *are* anorexic, or possibly who to look like they are, as opposed to people who think that's beautiful. Which may be more disturbing, but I meant, I don't see that people are actively fancying that.

[lizzip.livejournal.com]

Well, the anorexics certainly think it's beautiful. :p

Shrug. I've certainly been through a phase of finding skeletally thin girls attractive, but I was far from mentally stable at that point - and I don't think I can be the only person who's ever felt like that. :p

(I raise this purely to illustrate that it does sometimes happen.)

Anorexia

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

Yes, I'm glad to know people do.

But I don't think being an anorexic necessarily means you find anorexics beautiful -- nor even that you *think* it'll make you more beautiful, though that's what you can't help feeling, and I don't know how common those would be.

[bugshaw.livejournal.com]

fat_fangirls Join us...

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

Mmmm...

[pseudomonas.livejournal.com]

I don't think skeletal can ever be attractive

Note that some of us didn't choose to be this thin.

[uisgebeatha.livejournal.com]

Heh, fair point. I guess I mean people that do choose to starve themselves in a silly way to look pretty, but I know a lot of people who just have 'thin' genes or something. There was one friend at uni who had people asking if she was anorexic all the time, but she wasn't- she ate loads- she was just really really skinny. Thin can be pretty sometimes, though; I haven't seen any pics of you to pass judgement but I'm sure you look just fine. :)

[pseudomonas.livejournal.com]

It's kind of you to say so, but I'm not sure I look qualitatively different from someone who has "chosen to starve themselves".

[ewx.livejournal.com]

Like someone or other said, “I have noticed that it is acceptable to be rude about thin people.”

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

ROFL. True. Thin people are the new black fat people!

[ewx.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I'd go that far; there is far more propaganda, and more of it negative, directed at the heavier end of the scales than the lighter. Just, you know, pointing out that it's still rubbish either way.

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

But we're being *ahead* of the curve. There's definite backlash against the (common) criticism of fat people, but mocking thin people[1] doesn't seem to yet produce the same volume of defense...?

[1] Excepting those with eating disorders which have been named, and starving people.

[pseudomonas.livejournal.com]

I see quite a lot of it about :( Also generally everywhere stuff on how to lose weight, people saying to the effect of "I wish I was clinically underweight like you" &c. &c.

[beckyc.livejournal.com]

Three years ago, I was slightly underweight (BMI < 20). And everyone kept telling me how fantastic I looked, and how they wished they could be like that, and how fantastic it was that I was eating as much as I could and was still losing weight. The reality was that I was ill, and unfit.

Today, people tell me that they're jealous that I'm superfit*, and wish they could be like that.

*I'm not, I should point out, it's just what they say! They're basing it on silly measures like being able to run 3km in less than 20 minutes, rather than anything sensible.

[miss-next.livejournal.com]

Well, you know my feelings on this. If someone is genuinely overweight and they want to lose it, I'll give them all the encouragement I can, purely on health grounds - I work in public health research, so just about every day I hear about obesity as a risk factor for one thing or another. I lost about three stone myself because I didn't fancy getting diabetes or similar nasties. However, I have very little patience with the cult of the body beautiful, especially since (as you know) I am surrounded by skinny women on diets here at work. I get very impatient with them when they obsess about their weight.

Whether or not I find someone attractive depends first and foremost on their personality. After all, I did go out with Mole, who is not exactly slim... :-)

[karen2205]

two too many people are on my friendslist compaining about other people's attempts to help weight loss made me think of this.

I'm not sure I understand this sentence - people are complaining about other people attempting to help them loose weight? or people are complaining about other people attempting to lose weight?

If the former, I think they have a point. We're all entitled to determine what we do to our bodies, what gives anyone the moral right to attempt to help a competent adult lose weight unless that person has asked for help?

If the latter, the same thing applies IMO. If someone wants to lose weight for whatever reason (and they're not mentally ill) then what right does anyone else have to interefere? I think it's very sad that some people torture themselves about their weight and appearance, but it's not my place to intervene.

Many people are overweight and need to do something about it, this is unarguable and not what I want to discuss.

Actually, it is arguable. If we're talking in terms of health difficulties that occur more often in those with a BMI of over 30, then:
1. For those that smoke, stopping smoking is more important than losing weight to improving health
2. Losing weight too rapidly can be worse than staying overweight
3. Some people with high BMIs have a higher muscle:fat ratio than others eg. athletes/rowers and are not at risk of the consequences that come from a high BMI in someone with a normal muscle:fat ratio.
4. Losing weight and gaining it back again is worse than staying in the same place.
5. It's usually worse to be of normal BMI and unfit than have a high BMI whilst being very active.

In some respects it's an extension of this idea that overweight = necessarily unhealthy that leads to excess thinness = healthy = beauty and it's therefore important to understand that overweight does not necessarily = unhealthy.

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I understand this sentence

Sorry, it went through too many or not enough iterations. I was thinking of Risa's family saying "she looked pregnant" when trying on a new dress (Risa is not fat! OK, I haven't seen her for ages, but she is gorgeous), and ewx linking to someone's new and stupid way to tax BMI.

Many people are overweight and need to do something about it, this is unarguable and not what I want to discuss.

Sorry. You're entirely right, I just know if I *didn't* say that *everyone* would say argue about it; I tried too hard to admit that point I accidently went too far, but I'm not good at talking about one thing without getting distracted by another thing.

[beckyc.livejournal.com]

I assumed you were talking about me!

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

Actually, I nearly said "And becky's post too, but that doesn't count because it was first said yesterday,"

[cornute.livejournal.com]

"But there's also the strange thing that the ideal image seems to be way too thin."

I think people don't know what a weight looks like. Steinem once discussed her age; she said that she was sad that people all thought she looked quite young at 40, because if everyone told the truth about their age, then they'd know what 40 looked like.

I'm 6' tall (184cm) and very curvy; I'll even say that I have an extra bit of padding at the tummy that ought not to be there-- yet when I turn sideways and suck in, I still have a definite indented waist between my ribs and hips.

I've talked to guys within an inch or two of my height, guys of all builds, and asked them what they thought I weighed. Now, my friends aren't known for tact, so I can assure you none of them were lowballing the number (and they certainly acted shocked when I told them the correct answer!). The answers they gave me were in the 140-150 range, with the highest being 165.

I weigh 225 pounds, barefoot and in a bath towel.

So, if we as a culture think that 140 pounds is a reasonable weight for someone 6' tall, curvy, and muscular, is it ANY WONDER that people are starving themselves like idiots?

Corr
(who hasn't weighed 140 since I was 12 and shorter than my mum)

[bouteillebleu.livejournal.com]

I think people don't know what a weight looks like.

I'm almost certain of this. At my lightest in the last five years, I weighed 12 and a half stone - this was when I was rowing six times a week and doing weights three times a week - and other people on the squad usually guessed me at about a stone or two lower.

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

Ooh, nice eye. (And very mary-sue :))

I agree. That is, I never know what weight people are. After all, I never ask, so how would I?

[rochvelleth.livejournal.com]

Or so I've always heard. I haven't looked for a historical cite to confirm that

One classic example is the iconography on Etruscan tombs, where grotesquely fat people are always reclining on couches looking wealthy. I believe also the Queen of Punt in Egyptian iconography is a good example. Not so much in the true classical world though - there's a strong Greek cult of the body, where you're meant to be extremely lean and mean, though that's more applicable to men than women. Etc.

The whole Greek idea was indeed tied in with moderation to some extent, though this was evben more the case in the Roman world when everyone was a Stoic.

But I think there's also been some reevaluation of what it is to be 'thin'. Look at nude women in PreRaphaelite and some earlier art - not conforming to our modern conception of healthy woman body in many cases. Also, Greek statues of Aphrodite often have love handles.

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

Unless they weren't very good at carving, or were lambasting the recently dead emperor now they have a chance :) Seriously, thanks. It's good to know I didn't imagine this, now I made a post about it :)