Ideal body image

[jack]

Finally, two too many people are on my friendslist compaining about other people's attempts to help weight loss made me think of this. Many people are overweight and need to do something about it, this is unarguable and not what I want to discuss.

But there's also the strange thing that the ideal image seems to be way too thin. It used to be the case that fat was seen as beautiful, because it meant you were rich and had enough to eat, whereas poor people weren't and didn't[1].

Will we experience a resurgence of this? Certainly probably the richest people tend to do office work and not have spare time, which isn't a recipe for staying in shape. On the other hand, I can think of a few reasons for the status quo:

* Maybe success correlates with self-control correlates with body image
* It's an overreaction to people being overweight. So much effort is put into losing weight people forget the goal is a healthy weight, and try to continue to lose weight afterwards.
* It's just self-perpetuating. Standards of beauty get reinforced because everyone tries to live up to them, so it takes a long time for anything else to take hold
* Maybe it's a complete myth. Maybe no-one actually does like looking at skeletally thin people at all, but fashion magazines are just print them anyway because they're really stupid or in a modern art rotting cow way .

[1] Or so I've always heard. I haven't looked for a historical cite to confirm that.

Comments

[uisgebeatha.livejournal.com]

I don't think skeletal can ever be attractive. I'm sure guys like curvier women because they look less like they're about to blow away in the breeze. I was overweight at school, though not excessively so, and when I took up yoga last year I was still technically overweight according to the BMI, because my muscles were all taut.

Standards of beauty get reinforced because everyone tries to live up to them

Mmm, I can see what you mean. I never felt I had to live up to any kind of generic image of beauty, because that's just a sheep mentality. As it is, I weigh 9 and a half stone and I'm quite happy with my body image. (And I still eat like a horse :P)

Mmm, I can see what you mean. I never felt I had to live up to any kind of generic image of beauty

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

Maybe not compared to everyone else, but think of the wedding. Everyone wore dresses and suits, no? Why? Because it's arbitrary convention that that makes you look (a) pretty and (b) smartly dressed. How is that not living up to a generic image?

It's just that you don't ruin your body trying to achieve stupid and counterproductive images, I think we all are definitely influenced.

Re:

[uisgebeatha.livejournal.com]

Heh, quite right. I think there's probably a lot of unwritten conventions and generic images to adhere to when I think about it. Perhaps we should throw off the shackles of society's silly rules and go to formal events in fancy dress. Now that would really be an icebreaker ^_^

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

*My* formal event *is* http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/cusfs/veizla.html

Black tie or fancy dress. Smart fancy dress is normal, but not required. It makes sense to me, though I admit would be strange in a more formal formal situation such as... um... people who have to wear a suit to work :)

Perhaps we should throw off the shackles of society's silly rules

On atriec's lj there's been much discussion that we *do* need arbitrary rules. For instance, nudity/intimacy taboos -- it's useful to have some, whatever they are, whether they're personal or universal, so you can break them to show becoming closer to someone.

We're like those birds with elaborate plumage and dances, you have to show some effort. Some amount of effort is ridiculously too much, but would society function without any?

[uisgebeatha.livejournal.com]

*looks* Ooh, that looks...er...silly, but fun! :)

Hmm, yes there should probably be rules, but it's so hard to decide on rules and taboos when there are so many people blurring boundaries and breaking the rules and whatnot. As for showing effort, I suppose we all have to, but if we didn't make an effort, we'd be on the same level as lazy students, and that would not do! :P

looks* Ooh, that looks...er...silly, but fun! :)

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

LOL. And that doesn't have the email where I explain all the customs for first-timers. It is by far best when you know everyone, then it is a very good party. It's not *that* silly, honest, just a dinner with a few customs, eg. answering the challenge, and the new Reeve chasing the old one round the room 12' orange scarves flying.

The ceremony to raise the new sun is quite silly.

t's so hard to decide on rules and taboos when there are so many people blurring boundaries

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

Fortunately, the taboos occur naturally, so we don't have to decide :)

[senji.livejournal.com]

Some skeletally thin women are quite cute in an "aaargh, mustn't breathe because they'll break if I'm not careful" sort of way, but that doesn't make it a plausible lifestyle choice for the other 99.9999%.

There are better roads to cute :).

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

Some particularly but not painfully thin women work out very well, from a pure aesthetic perspective: they're often quite fit, and I think it also subconsciously emphasises their breasts. But it's not that everyone should be like that, just that some thin people are pretty.

[uisgebeatha.livejournal.com]

*nods* Sometimes I find thin women attractive, in an athletically-fit kind of way, but I prefer to see curves on the whole. And bony bits sticking out are really quite a turnoff. While I'll never quite fit into the category of 'elfin' (my massive hips and chest put paid to that) I'll say I'm slim and leave it at that, because if I lost more weight I might actually blow away! :)

[sunflowerinrain.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's attractive (thin women in films and tv make me shudder), but someone pointed at an lj community for skin-covered skeleton worshippers. Don't ask me where, because I looked once and I try not to think about it.

I'm definitely fat though, as in 20 kilos over optimum :(

[uisgebeatha.livejournal.com]

Gosh, there are LJ communities out there promoting that? That's terrible!

I'm definitely fat though, as in 20 kilos over optimum
At my peak I think I was 10 kilos or so over the ideal weight, but I don't think beauty can be measured just by stepping on the scales. I'm sure you're a pretty person no matter what your weight. :)

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

But take note, there's *one*. There's one lj for just about every kink or pervertion. Most people don't actually find that extreme attractive.

[lizzip.livejournal.com]

Actually, there's a rather large network of pro-anorexia/bulimia/ED-NOS LJ communities; searching for the interest "pro-ana" will give you a list of most of them.

No real point to this comment, other than "there's a good deal more than one" :(

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

For a while I was a member of pro-scurvy, just because of the name. But when I realised I couldn't be sure it was a spoof I got out :)

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

But most appear to be for people who *are* anorexic, or possibly who to look like they are, as opposed to people who think that's beautiful. Which may be more disturbing, but I meant, I don't see that people are actively fancying that.

[lizzip.livejournal.com]

Well, the anorexics certainly think it's beautiful. :p

Shrug. I've certainly been through a phase of finding skeletally thin girls attractive, but I was far from mentally stable at that point - and I don't think I can be the only person who's ever felt like that. :p

(I raise this purely to illustrate that it does sometimes happen.)

Anorexia

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

Yes, I'm glad to know people do.

But I don't think being an anorexic necessarily means you find anorexics beautiful -- nor even that you *think* it'll make you more beautiful, though that's what you can't help feeling, and I don't know how common those would be.

[bugshaw.livejournal.com]

fat_fangirls Join us...

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

Mmmm...

[pseudomonas.livejournal.com]

I don't think skeletal can ever be attractive

Note that some of us didn't choose to be this thin.

[uisgebeatha.livejournal.com]

Heh, fair point. I guess I mean people that do choose to starve themselves in a silly way to look pretty, but I know a lot of people who just have 'thin' genes or something. There was one friend at uni who had people asking if she was anorexic all the time, but she wasn't- she ate loads- she was just really really skinny. Thin can be pretty sometimes, though; I haven't seen any pics of you to pass judgement but I'm sure you look just fine. :)

[pseudomonas.livejournal.com]

It's kind of you to say so, but I'm not sure I look qualitatively different from someone who has "chosen to starve themselves".

[ewx.livejournal.com]

Like someone or other said, “I have noticed that it is acceptable to be rude about thin people.”

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

ROFL. True. Thin people are the new black fat people!

[ewx.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I'd go that far; there is far more propaganda, and more of it negative, directed at the heavier end of the scales than the lighter. Just, you know, pointing out that it's still rubbish either way.

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

But we're being *ahead* of the curve. There's definite backlash against the (common) criticism of fat people, but mocking thin people[1] doesn't seem to yet produce the same volume of defense...?

[1] Excepting those with eating disorders which have been named, and starving people.

[pseudomonas.livejournal.com]

I see quite a lot of it about :( Also generally everywhere stuff on how to lose weight, people saying to the effect of "I wish I was clinically underweight like you" &c. &c.

[beckyc.livejournal.com]

Three years ago, I was slightly underweight (BMI < 20). And everyone kept telling me how fantastic I looked, and how they wished they could be like that, and how fantastic it was that I was eating as much as I could and was still losing weight. The reality was that I was ill, and unfit.

Today, people tell me that they're jealous that I'm superfit*, and wish they could be like that.

*I'm not, I should point out, it's just what they say! They're basing it on silly measures like being able to run 3km in less than 20 minutes, rather than anything sensible.