(no subject)

[jack]

The King asked
The Queen, and
The Queen asked
The Dairymaid:
"Could we have some butter for
The Royal slice of bread?"
The Queen asked the Dairymaid,
The Dairymaid
Said, "Certainly,
I'll go and tell the cow
Now
Before she goes to bed."

http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/562.html

At poohsoc last week we had a reading from a book of Milne music, amongst other things analysing the timeline of this poem. It was very very amusing and well written. Alas, I can't remember what the book was called, or I'd try to quote an extract.

Owen, Anna -- do you happen to remember?

However, the basic point at question was, the breakfast seems to be happening in the morning, whereas the asking of the cow[1] for butter seems to take place when the cow is going to bed. The relevant passages in the poem are:

(a) Title, "King's breakfast"
(b) King described as having "bread with butter or marmalade" or "porridge", typically breakfast foods
(c) The king in despair is described as going back to bed
(d) The dairymaid says she'll ask the cow "Before she goes to bed"
(e) The cow is "sleepy"

There are a few interpretations, but none entirely satisfactory. H0 might be described as the null hypothesis. H1 and H2 were the two described in the book (although placed in their scholarly background, rather than in relation to my systematic numbering).

H0. The text is not entirely consistent, conveying the feeling of the events perfectly at the expense of describing a narrative which could actually happen chronologically.
H1. The cow has a nap in the morning.
H2. The events take place over slightly more than a day, the breakfast finally be described being the day *after* the kind is initially disappointed (either because H2a: there is no butter *now* or H2b: there might not be any butter tomorrow ).
H3. The dairymaid says "before she goes to bed" to mean she'll talk with the cow before the end of the day, though in fact is able to do so almost immediately. The cow is sleepy because she has just got up.
H4. The king is in the habit of having is breakfast last thing at night.[4]

All of those explain away all the facts presented, but all have the feeling of being fitted to the facts, rather than the facts naturally flowing from them. None feel unarguably *right*. Can anyone suggest conclusive support for any, or a convincing Fifth Theory?

[1] Note: Alderney is a sort of cow, like a mare[2], not a sort of royal functionary, like a mayor[3]. You may be thinking of "Alderman"
[2] That is, not "It's a sort of cow, in the same way a mare is a sort of cow" because it isn't, but "It's a sort of cow (the sort of cow it is being like a mare (at least compared to a mayor))".
[3] That is, the meaning of the word is not "Alderman". The cow itself may or may not be an Alderman, this isn't stated and is irrelevant to the poem. But since most cows aren't alderbovines, we will provisionally assume it isn't.
[4] Cows are traditionally milked in the morning. Is that biologically necessary, or just so the milk is freshest for a morning breakfast?

Comments

[bugshaw.livejournal.com]

An Alderney is a sort of cow in the same way that a Guernsey or a Jersey is a sort of cow.
Alderney is a Channel Island in the same way that Guernsey and Jersey are Channel Islands.
Given the cow's penchant for unkind humour, I'm inclined to think she's actually a Sark.

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

I guess that's another question. I assumed the cow was legitimately too tired to make milk easily and hoping the King wouldn't mind an alternative, perhaps in a slightly jocular way, but justifiably hadn't realised the king would be as hurt as he was.

[bugshaw.livejournal.com]

I'd never read it like that. Though I probably should give the cow the benefit of the doubt.

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

:) Well, Winnie-the-Pooh characters can be rather nasty in a naive unthinking way, but generally we assume Milne characters aren't being malicious and horrible, but rather amusing, innocent, happy, and that their problems are inconveniences of the order that a child might find: for the moment serious, but invariably surmountable.

After all, its about getting a buttered slice of bread. A child might be very disappointed when their favourite food isn't available (possibly due to the feeling of not being in control more than the actual lack.) But in most cases would subconsciously know that that might be bad now, but hopefully someone will make it better.

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

I do note "I probably should give the cow the benefit of the doubt," is very misleading out of context :)

[deborah_c]

Gosh. I think I may remember hearing this read on Radio 4, a long time ago (in my early teens, maybe)? I've wanted to hear (or read) it again every since, so do let me know where it's from?

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

The book, rather than the poem, that is? Well, poohsoc (or a member of poohsoc) certainly *has* it, so I hope I'm reminded soon. I can't remember if it was a reference to another work one might be able to track down, or original to that book. You might even be able to borrow it if you like, if it's part of the poohsoc mini-library :)

I'd love to post all of it, just for me, but that's probably too great an excerpt. Possibly amazon would have that book online. Or google. Or I can post it locked only to friends.

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

See my latest post.

Ah, you city people.

[cornute.livejournal.com]

Cows are usually milked twice a day, and generally about 12 hours apart. The first milking is before they go out to pasture in the morning.

Speculation: "going to bed" as in "going to the pasture"?

Re: Ah, you city people.

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

:) Of course, thanks.

Speculation: "going to bed" as in "going to the pasture"?

Ah, yes! I did consider that the cow might go to her bed without actually going to bed, that would be a good example thereof. But I forgot to include it. However, the cow being sleepy tends to belie this :(

[megamole.livejournal.com]

On a related issue, when do mogwais magically switch over from "do not feed after midnight" to "can be fed again"?

Is it once dawn has broken?

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

That's a funny one. When "after Xpm at night" stops is potentially a point of ambiguity in real life situations (eg. rules restricting things), but afaik everyone almost always has absolutely no doubt whatsoever what it means or whether a time is late at night or early in the morning, but neither could accurately define the difference.

I think the case must be that the vast majority of such restrictions never have a *need* to apply in the questionable wee hours, and if they apply early in the morning too, someone will have specified that.

Eg. Apparently Lucy Cavendish college has a sign/policy specifying that a piano is not to be played after 10pm (or something) at night. But I guess that if it's too disturbing to sleep then, anyone can tell it would be so at 4 a.m., and no-one ever tried, or was punished without the need to clarify the notice. And apparently people work out for themselves what time in the morning is too early to play the piano as people are likely to be sleeping, whereas forgot at night.

Often an implicit end-time is included if it's not specified, eg. some restrictions obviously mainly apply at night and end at dawn, or apply while people are sleeping and end when people/your neighbours tend to wake up, or apply when the office is empty and end when people come in.

The mogwai thing used to bother me when I was younger, but later I just viewed it as such a *fairytale* restriction that it was perfectly clear what it meant[1], even if it wasn't specified algorithmically.

I can think of a variety of physiological interpretations that would lead to that particular warning. For instance, if it applies for N hours after dusk, or until N hours before dawn, but N isn't always precisely known, then the given restriction would be a pretty accurate description of what was safe.

The link with not-being-in-sunlight, and not-after-dusk, makes me think that the cue is probably related to dawn, although it probably isn't dawn itself or that would have been stated (feeding them too early in winter would be a big risk). I'd guess[2] that either eight hours after dusk, or after dawn would be safe, and probably before then, but you couldn't be sure.

[1] That is, that watching the film, almost any viewer could correctly describe whether feeding occasion X would trigger the growth.
[2] Although there obviously *is* no canonical answer. What I mean is "If I, or other reasonable person, found it necessary to retroactively specify with the least disruption of the fairy-tale canon, what I would chose is:" or "If mogwais were real, and that description really was given of them, what I'd expect to observe would be:"

[ravingglory.livejournal.com]

I belive the book is called "The Winne-the-Pooh Song Book" A friend of my from CA is lending it to Pooh soc on the ground that we enjoy it. However I left at Carol's so can't look up the exact title.

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

Ah, thank you! Well, I'll check later.

sheep

[pizza.maircrosoft.com (from livejournal.com)]

isn't a mare any lady horse, while an alderney is a make of cow, and could be either male or female, except if it was male it would be a bull not a cow?

both alderman and alderney are places, however. different places.

Re: sheep

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, exactly, I just meant that this particular Alderney, being a female cow livestock, was more like a particular mare, being a female horse livestock, than either was like an Alderman, being a male human functionary. Not that the division of cows into breeds was like the division of horses into sexes. It wasn't a very good example, I had to phrase it like that to make the joke work :)