Pronouns

[jack]

"When John was a woman, [he/she/they] said '...' " Which pronoun do you prefer? (That is, "he" is appropriate for John now, "she" would be appropriate for what John was then, and "they" would specify the ambiguity.)

"The things God or Jesus [was/were] recorded as saying are ..." Which pronoun do you prefer? (That is, do you treat them as two separate people (were)? Or one person (was)? :))

Obviously both are arbitrary, and I think both sufficiently specialised that most people wouldn't mind which you used, I just wondered if anyone had a strong opinion :)

Comments

[rysmiel.livejournal.com]

I think in the case of John, the appropriate pronoun to refer to them with is whichever pronoun they actually identify with, which in an FTM transsexual's case seems to default to "he" to me, so I would use "he" to refer to that specific individual at any point in time, whatever their physiology might be at that point, unless they expressed a preference otherwise.

Raphael Carter, who maintains (or at least used to maintain) the androgyny RAQ and is the only person I know of who is strongly out about being biologically neither standard gender, favours being referred to as "he" and "she" alternately with equal frequency. I believe I would find this astoundingly difficult to do in conversation, compared to avoiding pronouns in a way which flows naturally, which takes relatively little practice. [ Raphael is also the author of The Fortunate Fall, which is a brilliant SF novel which you should read. ]

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

favours being referred to as "he" and "she" alternately with equal frequency. I believe I would find this astoundingly difficult to do in conversation

I know what you mean. On the other hand, I sort of like it as a concept, sort of like saying "it's fine to refer to me as 'he' or 'she', just don't think that's actually fits me".

Order of the Stick's Varsaavius, of officially unknown gender state, is often referred to something like that: characters in the comic tend to assign him one way or the other, but I think I've heard readers refer to her with "him" or "her" depending how they feel.

Raphael is also the author of The Fortunate Fall, which is a brilliant SF novel which you should read.

:) I will add it to the list of brilliant SF novels that I'm waiting to read :)

[ravingglory.livejournal.com]

I have friend who is an androgen, who likes the alternating pronouns, ze, and hir also work for hir. I find both difficult in conversation. (When typing its ok to pause to think of the right pronoun thank goodness.)

[rysmiel.livejournal.com]

I'm happy to use zie for other people, though I do not like it at all myself - I am a singular "they" in all cases where my gender is not directly relevant, which is everything except with medical professionals and some (but not all) of my partners. "Hir" I just can't seem to make come out unambiguously clearly when spoken, though.

[ravingglory.livejournal.com]

I have the same trouble with Hir. There are few constructions of singular they that sound a bit off to my ear, but its still easier to decline then zie.