Introsepction: reasons to be vegetarian
Jul. 24th, 2009 03:30 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
jackPreamble on objectivity
I love teasing each other about vegetarianism, but I also feel obliged to think it through seriously. Do I actually have any justification for being vegetarian, or do I just hold to it from habit?
I decided to re-examine my reasons to be vegetarian, and as suggested by overcoming bias see which were actually reasons, which were rationales, and which reasons were purely spurious. Assuming no-one else re-examines their opinions, I feel this will give me a smug sense of superiority :)
Real opinions are often held:
(a) for a specific reason, eg. "eat X because I like it", "don't eat Y because it's really unhealthy"
(b) for a mish-mash of related reasons, eg. "eat with a knife and fork"
(c) because it fits a good meme, true or not. eg. "I don't eat X because it's unethical" "But, actually it isn't" "But... what I heard is SO BAD that I don't eat it anyway, whether I heard true or not"
(d) as part of a cultural identity, eg. "I eat halal"
Often your opinion shifts under the surface. You do X, spend a long time with people who don't do X and still do X, but doing X becomes less and less important to you.
Reasons to be vegetarian
So, what are the standard arguments for being vegetarian, and do they apply to me?
1. ✗"It's healthy". It may or may not be true, but even if it were unhealthy I'd feel the same way.
2. "✗It's better for the enivronment". I'd LIKE this to be true. I'd also love it if coding PERL turned out to make me a hero saved lots of lives. But that doesn't mean it IS true. I'd be vegetarian either way (unless being vegetarian was much worse).
3. ✓ "It's part of my cultural identity". This is a big part of it. I spent 20 years being vegetarian, and it's part of who I am. Giving it up feels like giving up being English if I lived abroad -- sure, I could do if I wanted to, there's nothing inherently better about being English, but I don't want to, and I'd expect people to find it strange if I rejected it.
4. ✗"Because animals in the food (or dairy) industry suffer a lot." Often they do, often they don't. Again, it would feel very validating if this were true, and if it were true, I think it WOULD be a deal-breaker. But there is ethically grown meat and I don't want to eat that either. Indeed, I think I've been afraid to find out how bad the current industry is because I'm not sure how it would affect my opinions.
5. ✓ "Because killing things for pleasure is bad, mmkay." This is the reason I always quote. If there were vat meat, it would feel strange, but I'd eat that. Even though if I ate meat for long, I'd quickly get used to it, and though I'm not yet saying I'm RIGHT to believe this, this is definitely the real reason (along with #3) that I actually am.
6. ✗ "Because eating dead flesh is wrong/icky, mmlkay." This is definitely related. After not having done so I'd probably feel queasy morally and literally to eat something dead, even if it had died painlessly and accidentally. But I don't think I actually have a moral objection to it.
7. ✗ "Because it lets me feel superior." There's probably a little truth here. Even if they weren't true, I wouldn't adhere as closely to the habit if it didn't have trappings of morals and health. It's a reason I'm slow to reconsider my opinion, but if vegetarianism definitely had no benefits, I would reluctantly abandon it.
8. ✓ "Because I'm stubborn". This isn't a reason to be vegetarian forever, but it does mean I don't want to simply eat meat because it happens to be there, without actually deciding I have a good reason to.
False arguments against being vegetarian
1. We've evolved to be omnivores. It's natural. So? Gorillas eat food raw and kill babies when they take over the pack. We choose not to do so. Is that evolutionary or cultural? Does it matter? Is there an objective test for what's "natural" which will predict the things it's ok to do? Seriously, I'm being rhetorical, but do correct me if the argument is better than I give it credit for.
2. Everyone eats meat, and has done for most of history. So? We get used to doing all sorts of things that in a perfect world we would not do. "You're stupid because the status quo is always correct and you disagree with it" is not a killer argument.
Is killing animals for pleasure ok?
I admit the default position is to eat meat, and to be vegetarian you need some good reason to do otherwise.
Is killing animals for pleasure ok? I have chosen "no", but I admit this seems entirely subjective. My argument is that by default we care mostly about other people we're close to, friends and relations. We've chosen to extend that care to people we don't know. Though we still go to war, I think most people reading would agree it would be better if we didn't have to! We've chosen to extend parts of that care to animals. I think most (but not all) people reading would agree that animal cruelty is correctly illegal, even though if we lived under harsher circumstances we would probably not worry about it.
I think we should extend the not-being-raised-to-be-killed rights to animals. (Or at least, animals with feelings, wherever you draw that line.)
OTOH, I'm thinking that a better analogy for being vegetarian is not something like animal rights (portraying non-partakers as doing something wrong) but something like climate change campaigner (portraying non-partakers as merely having prioritised differently).
The weakest points in my position
Where is my position weakest?
1. What if animals were raised entirely humanely, and were killed without any kind of stress of damage beforehand at all? Animals do not get as MANY rights as humans, I'm not sure if I'd object to that or not.
2. But given the amount of human suffering, surely caring about animals is pointlessly narcissistic?
OTOH, any cause can be rebuffed by saying "There is a more important cause", but we have to take causes anyway.
3. Why do animals with feelings have rights, when plants and bacteria don't?
OTOH, that amount of moral relativism lets you rebuff ANY argument. You have to start somewhere, and if you like vegetarianism you could claim (right or not) that (a) animals with feelings are more important than plants and (b) if we didn't kill plants or bacteria we wouldn't be alive at all.
4. I do not keep perfectly vegetarian.
That's a criticism of me. A valid one. OTOH, it's better to do something than simply say "only perfect people should try at all".
5. Judging from how little effort I've made to adopt similar causes, I probably wouldn't have converted to being vegetarian if my parents hadn't been from the start.
Actually good arguments against vegetarianism
I know some, but am too biased to do them justice, and don't have time. Could someone else please give a good summary?
Summary
But I show no signs of changing my mind yet.
I love teasing each other about vegetarianism, but I also feel obliged to think it through seriously. Do I actually have any justification for being vegetarian, or do I just hold to it from habit?
I decided to re-examine my reasons to be vegetarian, and as suggested by overcoming bias see which were actually reasons, which were rationales, and which reasons were purely spurious. Assuming no-one else re-examines their opinions, I feel this will give me a smug sense of superiority :)
Real opinions are often held:
(a) for a specific reason, eg. "eat X because I like it", "don't eat Y because it's really unhealthy"
(b) for a mish-mash of related reasons, eg. "eat with a knife and fork"
(c) because it fits a good meme, true or not. eg. "I don't eat X because it's unethical" "But, actually it isn't" "But... what I heard is SO BAD that I don't eat it anyway, whether I heard true or not"
(d) as part of a cultural identity, eg. "I eat halal"
Often your opinion shifts under the surface. You do X, spend a long time with people who don't do X and still do X, but doing X becomes less and less important to you.
Reasons to be vegetarian
So, what are the standard arguments for being vegetarian, and do they apply to me?
1. ✗"It's healthy". It may or may not be true, but even if it were unhealthy I'd feel the same way.
2. "✗It's better for the enivronment". I'd LIKE this to be true. I'd also love it if coding PERL turned out to make me a hero saved lots of lives. But that doesn't mean it IS true. I'd be vegetarian either way (unless being vegetarian was much worse).
3. ✓ "It's part of my cultural identity". This is a big part of it. I spent 20 years being vegetarian, and it's part of who I am. Giving it up feels like giving up being English if I lived abroad -- sure, I could do if I wanted to, there's nothing inherently better about being English, but I don't want to, and I'd expect people to find it strange if I rejected it.
4. ✗"Because animals in the food (or dairy) industry suffer a lot." Often they do, often they don't. Again, it would feel very validating if this were true, and if it were true, I think it WOULD be a deal-breaker. But there is ethically grown meat and I don't want to eat that either. Indeed, I think I've been afraid to find out how bad the current industry is because I'm not sure how it would affect my opinions.
5. ✓ "Because killing things for pleasure is bad, mmkay." This is the reason I always quote. If there were vat meat, it would feel strange, but I'd eat that. Even though if I ate meat for long, I'd quickly get used to it, and though I'm not yet saying I'm RIGHT to believe this, this is definitely the real reason (along with #3) that I actually am.
6. ✗ "Because eating dead flesh is wrong/icky, mmlkay." This is definitely related. After not having done so I'd probably feel queasy morally and literally to eat something dead, even if it had died painlessly and accidentally. But I don't think I actually have a moral objection to it.
7. ✗ "Because it lets me feel superior." There's probably a little truth here. Even if they weren't true, I wouldn't adhere as closely to the habit if it didn't have trappings of morals and health. It's a reason I'm slow to reconsider my opinion, but if vegetarianism definitely had no benefits, I would reluctantly abandon it.
8. ✓ "Because I'm stubborn". This isn't a reason to be vegetarian forever, but it does mean I don't want to simply eat meat because it happens to be there, without actually deciding I have a good reason to.
False arguments against being vegetarian
1. We've evolved to be omnivores. It's natural. So? Gorillas eat food raw and kill babies when they take over the pack. We choose not to do so. Is that evolutionary or cultural? Does it matter? Is there an objective test for what's "natural" which will predict the things it's ok to do? Seriously, I'm being rhetorical, but do correct me if the argument is better than I give it credit for.
2. Everyone eats meat, and has done for most of history. So? We get used to doing all sorts of things that in a perfect world we would not do. "You're stupid because the status quo is always correct and you disagree with it" is not a killer argument.
Is killing animals for pleasure ok?
I admit the default position is to eat meat, and to be vegetarian you need some good reason to do otherwise.
Is killing animals for pleasure ok? I have chosen "no", but I admit this seems entirely subjective. My argument is that by default we care mostly about other people we're close to, friends and relations. We've chosen to extend that care to people we don't know. Though we still go to war, I think most people reading would agree it would be better if we didn't have to! We've chosen to extend parts of that care to animals. I think most (but not all) people reading would agree that animal cruelty is correctly illegal, even though if we lived under harsher circumstances we would probably not worry about it.
I think we should extend the not-being-raised-to-be-killed rights to animals. (Or at least, animals with feelings, wherever you draw that line.)
OTOH, I'm thinking that a better analogy for being vegetarian is not something like animal rights (portraying non-partakers as doing something wrong) but something like climate change campaigner (portraying non-partakers as merely having prioritised differently).
The weakest points in my position
Where is my position weakest?
1. What if animals were raised entirely humanely, and were killed without any kind of stress of damage beforehand at all? Animals do not get as MANY rights as humans, I'm not sure if I'd object to that or not.
2. But given the amount of human suffering, surely caring about animals is pointlessly narcissistic?
OTOH, any cause can be rebuffed by saying "There is a more important cause", but we have to take causes anyway.
3. Why do animals with feelings have rights, when plants and bacteria don't?
OTOH, that amount of moral relativism lets you rebuff ANY argument. You have to start somewhere, and if you like vegetarianism you could claim (right or not) that (a) animals with feelings are more important than plants and (b) if we didn't kill plants or bacteria we wouldn't be alive at all.
4. I do not keep perfectly vegetarian.
That's a criticism of me. A valid one. OTOH, it's better to do something than simply say "only perfect people should try at all".
5. Judging from how little effort I've made to adopt similar causes, I probably wouldn't have converted to being vegetarian if my parents hadn't been from the start.
Actually good arguments against vegetarianism
I know some, but am too biased to do them justice, and don't have time. Could someone else please give a good summary?
Summary
But I show no signs of changing my mind yet.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-25 01:35 am (UTC)I do believe 4 is true, but it's not my reason for not eating meat. The animal that died to make my shoes and purse probably suffered just as much, but I'm not going to stop using leather products. Same reason why 5 isn't a reason for me to do it.