Men and Women and Toilet Seats
May. 11th, 2010 04:37 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
jackOK, as a break from politics, lets talk about an issue which is fraught because everyone feels it should be trivial, but lots of us actually feel very strongly about: men and women and leaving the toilet seat up/down.
Obviously many people's approach to supposedly trivial sensitive issues to just make more and more pointed jokes about it until the other side knuckles under and admits they were stupid to even consider the question. Whereas I tend to see them more as an opportunity to practice compromise when it's easy, in order to have a better position when we need compromises on really important things.
In fact, I've heard surprisingly little about this issue in the last few years. I assume because all my friends either (a) quite literally grew up or (b) have been living in the same sorts of alone, family, or shared houses and so have got used to whatever standard pertains there.
First, get past a couple of red herrings
First, I think there are a couple of red herrings which are often cited but are not really relevant.
Firstly, "it's more work to do 'X'". I don't think this is really true for most people. Except when someone actually find it physically difficult to move the seat, I think people saying this are really just looking for a justification for what they really want to do. I think changing your habit is difficult, but actually raising or lowering the seat when you expect to have to do so is essentially trivial -- like opening a door automatically.
Secondly, "it's tidier to do 'X'". I think seat-down is a little tidier than seat-up, but lid-down is much much tidier, so if you actually care about this, it's unlikely that lid-up seat-down is what you really want except insofar as it's already convenient for you.
The theory
Listing to what people actually say on this subject, it seems like: in all bathrooms, there is a very variable proportion of lid-down toilets, but almost everyone has learned to expect that some of the time, and it's very visually different from the other configurations, so most people are able to recognise it in time not to accidentally use the toilet in that state.
However, of the rest of the time, men in men-only toilets are used to seeing toilets which are seat-down 20% of the time, whereas women in women-only toilets are used to seeing seat-down 100% of the time.
I hypothesise that men thus get used to seeing the difference, whereas women don't, and thus there is a small but unacceptable chance of seeing not-lid, and sitting down without looking.
If that's true, it leads naturally to stereotypical-man saying to stereotypical-woman "if you can't look at a toilet before you use it, you're too stupid to take seriously" and stereotypical-woman saying to stereotypical-man "look, it's FUCKING EASY, why can't you just get with the program and DO IT RIGHT and stop leaving other people to suffer the consequences of your laziness".
But of course, neither stereotype can explain WHY they want what they want, so just get annoyed at each other. And I modestly hope that if people just talked to each other, they'd actually discover that some moderate position actually made sense and they didn't have to hate it any more.
My recommendation in any case is to develop the habit of putting the lid down which as far as I can tell involves extra work in developing the habit (and is untenable if you want the toilet as an emergency back-up pet drinking fountain), but is tidy for everyone (even men) and doesn't have downsides for anyone.
But I'm not sure of my hypothesis -- if you have felt strongly about it, what have you felt?
In this metaphor, the XXXXXXXXXXXX party is the man, the XXXXXXX party is the woman and the XXXXXXX party is the toilet.
No, not really, I could see at least one mapping that might be funny, but I honestly didn't intend the comparison when I started the post, and don't agree with what it implies on so many levels.
Obviously many people's approach to supposedly trivial sensitive issues to just make more and more pointed jokes about it until the other side knuckles under and admits they were stupid to even consider the question. Whereas I tend to see them more as an opportunity to practice compromise when it's easy, in order to have a better position when we need compromises on really important things.
In fact, I've heard surprisingly little about this issue in the last few years. I assume because all my friends either (a) quite literally grew up or (b) have been living in the same sorts of alone, family, or shared houses and so have got used to whatever standard pertains there.
First, get past a couple of red herrings
First, I think there are a couple of red herrings which are often cited but are not really relevant.
Firstly, "it's more work to do 'X'". I don't think this is really true for most people. Except when someone actually find it physically difficult to move the seat, I think people saying this are really just looking for a justification for what they really want to do. I think changing your habit is difficult, but actually raising or lowering the seat when you expect to have to do so is essentially trivial -- like opening a door automatically.
Secondly, "it's tidier to do 'X'". I think seat-down is a little tidier than seat-up, but lid-down is much much tidier, so if you actually care about this, it's unlikely that lid-up seat-down is what you really want except insofar as it's already convenient for you.
The theory
Listing to what people actually say on this subject, it seems like: in all bathrooms, there is a very variable proportion of lid-down toilets, but almost everyone has learned to expect that some of the time, and it's very visually different from the other configurations, so most people are able to recognise it in time not to accidentally use the toilet in that state.
However, of the rest of the time, men in men-only toilets are used to seeing toilets which are seat-down 20% of the time, whereas women in women-only toilets are used to seeing seat-down 100% of the time.
I hypothesise that men thus get used to seeing the difference, whereas women don't, and thus there is a small but unacceptable chance of seeing not-lid, and sitting down without looking.
If that's true, it leads naturally to stereotypical-man saying to stereotypical-woman "if you can't look at a toilet before you use it, you're too stupid to take seriously" and stereotypical-woman saying to stereotypical-man "look, it's FUCKING EASY, why can't you just get with the program and DO IT RIGHT and stop leaving other people to suffer the consequences of your laziness".
But of course, neither stereotype can explain WHY they want what they want, so just get annoyed at each other. And I modestly hope that if people just talked to each other, they'd actually discover that some moderate position actually made sense and they didn't have to hate it any more.
My recommendation in any case is to develop the habit of putting the lid down which as far as I can tell involves extra work in developing the habit (and is untenable if you want the toilet as an emergency back-up pet drinking fountain), but is tidy for everyone (even men) and doesn't have downsides for anyone.
But I'm not sure of my hypothesis -- if you have felt strongly about it, what have you felt?
No, not really, I could see at least one mapping that might be funny, but I honestly didn't intend the comparison when I started the post, and don't agree with what it implies on so many levels.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-11 06:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-11 06:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-11 06:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-11 06:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-11 07:02 pm (UTC)Sometimes it's really cute, though, like the Batman/Robocop love affair.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-11 06:27 pm (UTC)That leaves public restrooms and other people's homes. Anyone who doesn't check the status of a toilet in a public restroom is an idiot. The other problem doesn't really occur for me because almost no one entertains at home.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-11 07:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-11 08:18 pm (UTC)Grrrr.