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jackThis is a brief retelling of a story from the Talmud. [ie. Longer than the original story, but shorter than everything everyone has written about it in the 2000 years since.] However, the story is quite notable, so what I say is almost certain to need significant annotation by people in the comments, as you can read into the story significant generalisations about theology, and not all of the ones I suggest will probably be able to be accurate. It goes roughly like this.
R. Eliezer: *is da man*
R. Eliezer: *is generally accepted as one of the wisest, or THE wisest sage of his time*
R. Eliezer: *has a deep understanding of the universe and the law, which will later be demonstrated by invoking several miracles in order to make his point*
R. Eliezer: You know the bit with the oven of Acknai, where people argue whether [breaking it apart and gluing it back together again] [makes it an object still subject to ritual impurity]? Well, I've been thinking about it, and I'm pretty sure God's law implies that it does and I know what I'm talking about.
Everyone else: Nuh-uh!
R. Eliezer: Yuh-uh!
Everyone: [Retread of long argument, not recorded in this point in the Mishnah]
R. Eliezer: OK, this is rhetorically dodgy, but pretend there's a connection between the fact that I can do miracles and the fact I know what I'm talking about.
Water: *flows upstream*
Everyone else: Hmmm.... But honestly, although you're very wise (and you really ARE) we still think you're wrong about the stupid oven.
Everyone else: See, The Big Guy was pretty clear. He gave us the law. We interpret it according to set traditions. NOT according to whoever can make water flow upstream. Else chaos would ensue! We voted. You lost. STOP GOING ON ABOUT IT!
R. Eliezer: *makes the wall fall down with magic*
R. Joshua: *makes the wall stop falling down with magic*
Walls: *stay in crazy lean*
R. Eliezer: OK, OK, look. (Puts on big voice) If I'm right, let a sign from heaven show it!
Big boomy voice from The Big Guy out of heaven: DUDES, HE'S TOTALLY RIGHT. WHAT HE SAYS IS WHAT I MEANT BY THE LAW ALL ALONG. [1]
Everyone else: Nuh-uh. You gave us the law, and you told us quite explicitly how to interpret it according to the accepted majority opinion. It's RIGHT THERE in the bible. You can't go and take it back now or no-one would do anything in case You came and told them something different five minutes later.[1]
R. Eliezer: *grump* *grump* *is a sore loser.
[1] I am not making this up.
Addendum 1
Everyone else: If he's going to run mad and blight the world with his grief and generally upset the smooth running of things, we probably have to excommunicate him, don't we :(
Everyone else: *mutter, shuffles feet*
Everyone else: And someone better go and tell him :(
Everyone else: *mutter, shuffles feet*
R. Akiva: *is a futurely famous Rabbi*
R. Akiva: *is R. Eliezer's student*
R. Akiva: OK, I'll do it. Better someone he knows is there, if he's going to run mad and blight the world with his grief and generally upset the smooth running of things.
R. Akiva: R. Eliezer, do you want the good news or the bad news? But don't ask for the good news, because there isn't any.
R. Eliezer: *grief*
R. Eliezer: *destroys everything he looks upon*
Everything: *is generally blighted, and the crops stricken, and great storms come up and nearly drown one of the other Rabbis*
R. Gamiliel: *is chairman of the council* (ie. "everyone else" in this story)
R. Gamiliel: *is also R. Eliezer's BiL*
R. Gamiliel: *is struck dead*
Addendum 2
Elijah: *is great prophet and sage*
Elijah: *never properly died*
Elijah: *is walking the world, but is also chummy with The Big Guy*
Elijah: Hey, Big Guy, what really happened?
The Big Guy: LOL![1] My children have all grown up. When your children surpass you in debate, it's the proudest moment in your life. I win!
R. Nathan: So, um, at the big council meeting? The Big Guy sort of told us what to do. And we, um, sort of laughed in His face. Um.
R. Nathan: Do you know if He's ok with that?
Elijah: No sweat. He says it's cool.
[1] I am not making this up.
Summary
1. I would expect this to be metaphorical or apocryphal, and the same for many similar stories, that whether or not they literally happened, the intent is that if there IS a Jewish God and then He WOULD express these kind of sentiments, whether or not the exact thing with the argument about the oven actually happened. But obviously that sort of sweeping statement about how to interpret stories in Talmud is the sort of thing you should say after you've studied how people really see it more widely than I have.
2. And the obvious big point is that -- for whatever reason -- the view of the council was that they should interpret the law in a consistent and just fashion -- and not expect or require immediate intervention by God. Obviously that doesn't say for sure whether everyone agrees they were right -- and stories are often presented as "I'm not sure which side of this story is blasphemous, but I'm pretty sure it's important and illustrative, so here it is". But regardless of whether it's universally agreed to be right, it definitely reflects a trend in Judaism, which I find hard to describe without being offensive, about what God is for, and what God is not for and that (whether or not He IS there) Judaism works perfectly well with God, or without God.
3. I'm struck by a (probably unwise) comparison to a Jesus story, where Jesus makes a similar argument (although he supposedly IS God, rather than supposedly just being CLOSE to God) that his deep understanding of the universe fits him to answer law/moral questions, but where his understanding actually seems that it DOES fit him, whereas Eliezer's apparently doesn't.
Again, I hope I manage to convey some of the feel without being inappropriate, although this subject I really can't do justice in 500 words :)
R. Eliezer: *is da man*
R. Eliezer: *is generally accepted as one of the wisest, or THE wisest sage of his time*
R. Eliezer: *has a deep understanding of the universe and the law, which will later be demonstrated by invoking several miracles in order to make his point*
R. Eliezer: You know the bit with the oven of Acknai, where people argue whether [breaking it apart and gluing it back together again] [makes it an object still subject to ritual impurity]? Well, I've been thinking about it, and I'm pretty sure God's law implies that it does and I know what I'm talking about.
Everyone else: Nuh-uh!
R. Eliezer: Yuh-uh!
Everyone: [Retread of long argument, not recorded in this point in the Mishnah]
R. Eliezer: OK, this is rhetorically dodgy, but pretend there's a connection between the fact that I can do miracles and the fact I know what I'm talking about.
Water: *flows upstream*
Everyone else: Hmmm.... But honestly, although you're very wise (and you really ARE) we still think you're wrong about the stupid oven.
Everyone else: See, The Big Guy was pretty clear. He gave us the law. We interpret it according to set traditions. NOT according to whoever can make water flow upstream. Else chaos would ensue! We voted. You lost. STOP GOING ON ABOUT IT!
R. Eliezer: *makes the wall fall down with magic*
R. Joshua: *makes the wall stop falling down with magic*
Walls: *stay in crazy lean*
R. Eliezer: OK, OK, look. (Puts on big voice) If I'm right, let a sign from heaven show it!
Big boomy voice from The Big Guy out of heaven: DUDES, HE'S TOTALLY RIGHT. WHAT HE SAYS IS WHAT I MEANT BY THE LAW ALL ALONG. [1]
Everyone else: Nuh-uh. You gave us the law, and you told us quite explicitly how to interpret it according to the accepted majority opinion. It's RIGHT THERE in the bible. You can't go and take it back now or no-one would do anything in case You came and told them something different five minutes later.[1]
R. Eliezer: *grump* *grump* *is a sore loser.
[1] I am not making this up.
Addendum 1
Everyone else: If he's going to run mad and blight the world with his grief and generally upset the smooth running of things, we probably have to excommunicate him, don't we :(
Everyone else: *mutter, shuffles feet*
Everyone else: And someone better go and tell him :(
Everyone else: *mutter, shuffles feet*
R. Akiva: *is a futurely famous Rabbi*
R. Akiva: *is R. Eliezer's student*
R. Akiva: OK, I'll do it. Better someone he knows is there, if he's going to run mad and blight the world with his grief and generally upset the smooth running of things.
R. Akiva: R. Eliezer, do you want the good news or the bad news? But don't ask for the good news, because there isn't any.
R. Eliezer: *grief*
R. Eliezer: *destroys everything he looks upon*
Everything: *is generally blighted, and the crops stricken, and great storms come up and nearly drown one of the other Rabbis*
R. Gamiliel: *is chairman of the council* (ie. "everyone else" in this story)
R. Gamiliel: *is also R. Eliezer's BiL*
R. Gamiliel: *is struck dead*
Addendum 2
Elijah: *is great prophet and sage*
Elijah: *never properly died*
Elijah: *is walking the world, but is also chummy with The Big Guy*
Elijah: Hey, Big Guy, what really happened?
The Big Guy: LOL![1] My children have all grown up. When your children surpass you in debate, it's the proudest moment in your life. I win!
R. Nathan: So, um, at the big council meeting? The Big Guy sort of told us what to do. And we, um, sort of laughed in His face. Um.
R. Nathan: Do you know if He's ok with that?
Elijah: No sweat. He says it's cool.
[1] I am not making this up.
Summary
1. I would expect this to be metaphorical or apocryphal, and the same for many similar stories, that whether or not they literally happened, the intent is that if there IS a Jewish God and then He WOULD express these kind of sentiments, whether or not the exact thing with the argument about the oven actually happened. But obviously that sort of sweeping statement about how to interpret stories in Talmud is the sort of thing you should say after you've studied how people really see it more widely than I have.
2. And the obvious big point is that -- for whatever reason -- the view of the council was that they should interpret the law in a consistent and just fashion -- and not expect or require immediate intervention by God. Obviously that doesn't say for sure whether everyone agrees they were right -- and stories are often presented as "I'm not sure which side of this story is blasphemous, but I'm pretty sure it's important and illustrative, so here it is". But regardless of whether it's universally agreed to be right, it definitely reflects a trend in Judaism, which I find hard to describe without being offensive, about what God is for, and what God is not for and that (whether or not He IS there) Judaism works perfectly well with God, or without God.
3. I'm struck by a (probably unwise) comparison to a Jesus story, where Jesus makes a similar argument (although he supposedly IS God, rather than supposedly just being CLOSE to God) that his deep understanding of the universe fits him to answer law/moral questions, but where his understanding actually seems that it DOES fit him, whereas Eliezer's apparently doesn't.
Again, I hope I manage to convey some of the feel without being inappropriate, although this subject I really can't do justice in 500 words :)
no subject
Date: 2011-03-02 02:34 pm (UTC)