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jackWhere do I stand religiously? Still atheist, about like you'd probably expect. Although more thoughts in a follow-up post.
Is there any particular religion I'm not? I think that's a question which is interesting in potentially several different ways.
I generally expect a religion to be something like "some combination of a culture, a belief system about the supernatural, and a moral framework".
Culture-wise, I'm very much english and vaguely CoE. I do Christmas, and Easter, and other english religious-instigated festivals, and I'd happily do other ones instead if I lived in a culture where that was normal, but it would feel very strange not to do ANYTHING for Xmas. I went to CoE things with school sometimes, and learned hymns and so on, and I hadn't realised how much I'd subconsciously absorbed how I expected religious services to work until I actively compared notes with people who had absorbed _different_ expectations: not just the obvious things, as the things I didn't even think to question (of course you bury people in the churchyard, right?)
And I'm also sopping up a steady trickle of Jewish culture from Rachel and Rachel's friends, and I really value having the experience of another culture, although I doubt I'd get to the point where it would displace my background as my primary religious-derived culture (unless I specifically made an effort to do so).
So in one sense, you might say my atheism is "CoE with the God taken out", although that's not really fair to CoE, nor to people who don't believe in God but come from different cultural traditions.
The other way of posing the question is, what, specifically, don't I believe? Well, basically, "anything supernatural" (where supernatural means something roughly like "outside how we expect physics to work",but you probably know what I mean better than I can describe). Which was always presented to me as a defining feature of religion. With emphasis on "and therefore you should obey this set of rules even if they seem horrible". That's what I'm atheist against, that's what I'm not. Although, my terminology may not be right, because that's the background I'm coming from, but I encounter more religious people for whom that is a small or non-existent part of their religion.
Is there any particular religion I'm not? I think that's a question which is interesting in potentially several different ways.
I generally expect a religion to be something like "some combination of a culture, a belief system about the supernatural, and a moral framework".
Culture-wise, I'm very much english and vaguely CoE. I do Christmas, and Easter, and other english religious-instigated festivals, and I'd happily do other ones instead if I lived in a culture where that was normal, but it would feel very strange not to do ANYTHING for Xmas. I went to CoE things with school sometimes, and learned hymns and so on, and I hadn't realised how much I'd subconsciously absorbed how I expected religious services to work until I actively compared notes with people who had absorbed _different_ expectations: not just the obvious things, as the things I didn't even think to question (of course you bury people in the churchyard, right?)
And I'm also sopping up a steady trickle of Jewish culture from Rachel and Rachel's friends, and I really value having the experience of another culture, although I doubt I'd get to the point where it would displace my background as my primary religious-derived culture (unless I specifically made an effort to do so).
So in one sense, you might say my atheism is "CoE with the God taken out", although that's not really fair to CoE, nor to people who don't believe in God but come from different cultural traditions.
The other way of posing the question is, what, specifically, don't I believe? Well, basically, "anything supernatural" (where supernatural means something roughly like "outside how we expect physics to work",but you probably know what I mean better than I can describe). Which was always presented to me as a defining feature of religion. With emphasis on "and therefore you should obey this set of rules even if they seem horrible". That's what I'm atheist against, that's what I'm not. Although, my terminology may not be right, because that's the background I'm coming from, but I encounter more religious people for whom that is a small or non-existent part of their religion.
Re: Tyrant gods
Date: 2014-12-12 11:04 am (UTC)Remember, from my point of view, "people I know, like and respect say it worked well for them" is a much HIGHER endorsement than "being biblical" :)
what if God told me to do something I thought was immoral? I guess I'd have a problem. But the fact I'd have a problem in such a hypothetical circumstance does not mean I have that problem now.
Well, I think that's perfectly ok! I've faced that question on a smaller scale eg. there are people I respect a lot, and because they're so often right about difficult questions, if I disagree with them, I will assume I'm likely missing something. And if it ever comes up, I am ready to admit that I think they're flat-out wrong about something, but it's hard to think about that in advance.
But that's based on your (presumed) experience that what God tells you is usually right?
I said, "I wouldn't like to follow a religion which included God telling me to do things I think are immoral". By which I mean especially blatant examples like "refusing to see a doctor". You said, that's silly, and I agree, except that some actual real people actually believe that and I don't want to belittle that (even though I think it's a really bad thing when it happens). And then you asked, what would I do if God asked me to do something immoral?
I didn't just start talking about that out of the blue, I answered because it seemed you were asking me that direct hypothetical question. Now I wonder -- is it the case that you assumed that God would never ask me to do anything ACTUALLY immoral (like the not seeing a doctor thing), and that was so obvious that you didn't need to say it? Because now I can see that might have been what you meant, but that's NOT obvious to me.
If you're assuming that God will only tell me to do things that seem immoral because they're actually good, but I'm just wrong about them, then it makes sense to say, I should pay more attention if a message apparently from God. But I seriously don't think that's the case. The right amount of attention to pay to new ideas isn't "infinitely much" and I don't think you can dodge that by saying "live in the moment" even if that's often useful advice -- and given that, there must be ways to be too open to being wrong and ways to be not open enough to realising you're wrong. And I'm fairly sure where my flaws are -- I don't think my flaws are "that looks horrifically immoral to me, but I missed that it's actually a good idea" which is what I'm imagining here -- I think my flaws are more likely to be "here's a large thing I'd not considered enough" and "here's something I think is a good thing in principle, but I need to stop being scared it's beyond my reach and act on it right now"...
Re: Tyrant gods
Date: 2014-12-12 08:59 pm (UTC)You seem to be talking there about people you know personally. But what about authors you have come to know, like and respect?
As you know, I currently stop a long, long way short of saying the Bible is in any sense a perfect book. On the other hand, I am gradually growing to know, like and respect the authors somewhat more. Which makes me more eager to pay attention to what they say worked well for them.
As a case in point, I'd invite you — if you've got a moment — to read Romans 1:18-32. I'd read that, and found it very hard to like Paul as its author. But then
Suddenly, I started liking Paul a lot more. And paying more attention to what he said on other matters.
Re: Tyrant gods
Date: 2014-12-12 09:34 pm (UTC)There happen to be more of the former than the latter, but I'm not sure why.
I am definitely interested in articles like that, that put biblical authors in context and pull out the reasons we SHOULD listen to them.