Presents

[jack]

What are presents? Shall we say, giving someone something they wouldn't have had otherwise. However, the reasons why they don't have that differ. For a child, it's probably "your parents haven't bought it yet." For many people, it's "I can't afford to buy that." However, a pleasant middle-class household *could* afford any thing they wanted, all the way up to £200,000 if they chose; but they can't afford *all* things, so you chose which to spend surplus income on. Then the limiting factor is almost "thoyling." A present to myself is something I can afford, that's fun, but that I'm being profligate for :) If you're actually pretty rich, then you have the "already got everything problem."

The *other* limiting factor is knowing you wanted something, or that something existed. That's why buying presents can be so difficult, you're looking for something you know someone would like, that they wouldn't. Meeting both factors is more "wow-ful" though meeting either is fine. For someone very rich, this is about the only way. For someone very poor, it's obviously better, but there would be many things you both know you want, that would be very acceptable. If you can't meet either, that's when you exchange book tokens, which is perfectly fine, but isn't special.

Of course, there are other things as well. You might give someone something they couldn't have for any combination of reasons including the above and: you were married to them didn't previously want them to; they would be embarrassed to buy it; they would have had to get it shipped from another country; etc.

This is why I like books. If you *really* want a book, you can buy it, but there are too many good books, so having that specific one is a little extra unjustified luxury. And there will *always* be books you might like but haven't read. It's difficult to know what, but at least you stand a *fair* chance of picking right :)

For myself, I always like:

* Things I didn't know I wanted, geek toys, etc.
* Music. I listen to almost no music, so if you want to impress your tastes upon me, try, please! :)
* Books. Pick something you like and think I might like, and it'll always be gratefully received.
* Chocolate. I don't *especially* like chocolate, but it's always very nice and I never buy it :)

Comments

[beckyc.livejournal.com]

I'm questioning why you think that a pleasant middle-class household automatically *could* raise £200,000, because I do not think it is true. Class and wealth are not equivalent. Of course some middle class people could, but do you really think that, say, a young family living on one teaching salary could? Teachers are about as middle middle class as you can get!

*I* couldn't raise 200,000 pounds by myself, and I only have to support me and not an entire family! Am I suddenly not middle class any more? If so, why?

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

I apologise, I picked the figure from the air to give a general idea of what you could have if you compromised on everything else. The exact figures don't matter, but you're right, for many people it would be wrong.

Possibly I have become depressed by examining house prices in Cambridge :)

(However, agreeing with you on the important social point, I don't know about the financial question. You wouldn't actually do it, but if you earn £20000, pay 20% tax, live in what you buy, live on rice, and pay the vast majority of your salary on the mortgage, get a parent to cosign the loan so the bank will give it to you, and get a 30 year interest only mortgage at 5%, couldn't you?)

[beckyc.livejournal.com]

However, agreeing with you on the important social point, I don't know about the financial question. You wouldn't actually do it, but if you earn £20000, pay 20% tax, live in what you buy, live on rice, and pay the vast majority of your salary on the mortgage, get a parent to cosign the loan so the bank will give it to you, and get a 30 year interest only mortgage at 5%, couldn't you?

Do you really think that most people's parents would cosign a mortgage?! Again, I'm back to the "Should I be feeling deprived that Mummy isn't buying me a house then?" thought. Personally, I don't think that the problem is the (sensible) people who wouldn't (or couldn't) cosign a mortgage at an age when they are retiring, but in all the props that are artificially keeping the housing market at a level so much greater than the average salary would be able to afford.

In the figures that you use, that's 10 times salary. How can that possibly work with the banks unless the cosigner is rich? I haven't tried it myself, but can you really point me to some place that would give me 10 times a salary (or, to make it easier, seven or eight times) at a rate of only 5% pa for 30 years?

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

You sound like you still feel this is very personal. I don't intend that it is -- where am I making these assumptions?

(I don't think parents *should* have to cosign mortgages, I don't know whether they normally would. I thought it was plausible in a selling-everything-you-know scenario. And I don't know how much the bank would take the cosigner into account; I assumed they had a decent salary and equity in a house, and had the impression that it could be swung, but I may be wrong, sorry.)

[beckyc.livejournal.com]

Goodness, no, it's not personal* at all, perhaps I need more smilies (personally, I think the "Mummy won't buy me a house" nonsense is preposterous and thought it was obviously so! I couldn't even begin to imagine asking my parents for handouts, could you?). These are generalities that we are talking about, and I don't think it's generally true that the parents of all middle class adults have 60K salaries or large houses that they'll just sign over to their children! After all, what if they have more than one child, then they'd have to have an even higher income to satisfy it.

If you rephrase it as "People who have lots of money or whose parents have lots of money can generally get hold of lots of money", then I'd probably agree, though consider it a bit circular and wouldn't know why they didn't just come under "rich".

*I wouldn't dream of going into details of my *actual* family life or setup somewhere like this!

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

OK, smilies retroactively assumed :) Sorry, thank you :)

I think the "Mummy won't buy me a house" nonsense is preposterous and thought it was obviously so! I couldn't even begin to imagine asking my parents for handouts, could you?

To me it sounded like you thought I was implying many people would buy their children a house, which would be odd. But I didn't view cosigning expecting it not to be used as a handout (obviously not the right decision for everyone, but I wouldn't think someone was being carried if their parents did decide to do that).

OK, my original figure was a ridiculous stretch for many people. Possibly *just* within reach with *very severe* hardship and emotional blackmail :) But you're concentrating on the wrong thing with your rephrasing :)

Maybe the reference to the most you could possibly afford was rather misleading. I would never chose to give up everything else and buy something costing £n00,000 if I could. But I might decide between buying a new car or buying a thousand books, and it was supposed to illustrate that. So someone buying me a book isn't giving me something I *can't* have otherwise, but something I'm choosing not to. Which is good, but I think different.