![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
jackWhere do I stand religiously? Still atheist, about like you'd probably expect. Although more thoughts in a follow-up post.
Is there any particular religion I'm not? I think that's a question which is interesting in potentially several different ways.
I generally expect a religion to be something like "some combination of a culture, a belief system about the supernatural, and a moral framework".
Culture-wise, I'm very much english and vaguely CoE. I do Christmas, and Easter, and other english religious-instigated festivals, and I'd happily do other ones instead if I lived in a culture where that was normal, but it would feel very strange not to do ANYTHING for Xmas. I went to CoE things with school sometimes, and learned hymns and so on, and I hadn't realised how much I'd subconsciously absorbed how I expected religious services to work until I actively compared notes with people who had absorbed _different_ expectations: not just the obvious things, as the things I didn't even think to question (of course you bury people in the churchyard, right?)
And I'm also sopping up a steady trickle of Jewish culture from Rachel and Rachel's friends, and I really value having the experience of another culture, although I doubt I'd get to the point where it would displace my background as my primary religious-derived culture (unless I specifically made an effort to do so).
So in one sense, you might say my atheism is "CoE with the God taken out", although that's not really fair to CoE, nor to people who don't believe in God but come from different cultural traditions.
The other way of posing the question is, what, specifically, don't I believe? Well, basically, "anything supernatural" (where supernatural means something roughly like "outside how we expect physics to work",but you probably know what I mean better than I can describe). Which was always presented to me as a defining feature of religion. With emphasis on "and therefore you should obey this set of rules even if they seem horrible". That's what I'm atheist against, that's what I'm not. Although, my terminology may not be right, because that's the background I'm coming from, but I encounter more religious people for whom that is a small or non-existent part of their religion.
Is there any particular religion I'm not? I think that's a question which is interesting in potentially several different ways.
I generally expect a religion to be something like "some combination of a culture, a belief system about the supernatural, and a moral framework".
Culture-wise, I'm very much english and vaguely CoE. I do Christmas, and Easter, and other english religious-instigated festivals, and I'd happily do other ones instead if I lived in a culture where that was normal, but it would feel very strange not to do ANYTHING for Xmas. I went to CoE things with school sometimes, and learned hymns and so on, and I hadn't realised how much I'd subconsciously absorbed how I expected religious services to work until I actively compared notes with people who had absorbed _different_ expectations: not just the obvious things, as the things I didn't even think to question (of course you bury people in the churchyard, right?)
And I'm also sopping up a steady trickle of Jewish culture from Rachel and Rachel's friends, and I really value having the experience of another culture, although I doubt I'd get to the point where it would displace my background as my primary religious-derived culture (unless I specifically made an effort to do so).
So in one sense, you might say my atheism is "CoE with the God taken out", although that's not really fair to CoE, nor to people who don't believe in God but come from different cultural traditions.
The other way of posing the question is, what, specifically, don't I believe? Well, basically, "anything supernatural" (where supernatural means something roughly like "outside how we expect physics to work",but you probably know what I mean better than I can describe). Which was always presented to me as a defining feature of religion. With emphasis on "and therefore you should obey this set of rules even if they seem horrible". That's what I'm atheist against, that's what I'm not. Although, my terminology may not be right, because that's the background I'm coming from, but I encounter more religious people for whom that is a small or non-existent part of their religion.
Re: Tyrant gods
Date: 2014-12-07 05:27 pm (UTC)But being too full of doubt can be as big a problem as being too full of certainty. If I've already decided which things I'm fairly certain are immoral, and which things I'm not certain of and need more thought, and someone threatens me with physical violence unless I do something that I think is immoral, and I consider it thoroughly and still can't see any reason it's not immoral, how long am I supposed to go on neglecting all the other things I think are actually important, to consider that I might be wrong about this one?
Re: Tyrant gods
Date: 2014-12-11 12:54 am (UTC)The first is that this isn't (so far as I'm aware) directly Biblical. I'm speaking more of advice other Christians have given me, and my experience of the consequences and side-effects of trying to live according to God's will. Emergent Biblicism, if you like.
The second is that I'm trying hard to offer advice here without seeming judgemental, but I know I suck at that. If you think I'm way off kilter, or you think what I say is correct but inapplicable, please forgive me and then ignore me. And yes, I know there's a large dollop of hypocrisy here for me…
What do you need to have firm views about? Ultimately, the task in hand. Who knows what tomorrow will bring? Does it help being sure about abortion if you meet a smoker?
Therefore, the glib answer to "how long am I supposed to go on neglecting all the other things I think are actually important, to consider that I might be wrong about this one?" would be "for so long as it's the problem in front of you".
So: what if God told me to do something I thought was immoral? I guess I'd have a problem. But the fact I'd have a problem in such a hypothetical circumstance does not mean I have that problem now.
This has been a major challenge for me in relation to bisexuality. I have to recognise that I am not currently falling in love with a man, so there's no problem. For many months, I challenged various ministers about doctrine on sexuality, and prayed earnestly and repeatedly to God about it. The ministers were cross with me and God maintained a very deliberate silence. Putting the issue on the back burner has been far more fruitful.
So I'm less certain than I used to be that homosexual relationships are every bit as valid as heterosexual ones. I'm less certain of a lot of things. I have more doubt than I ever thought possible. And yet I am able to act with far greater clarity.
Re: Tyrant gods
Date: 2014-12-12 11:04 am (UTC)Remember, from my point of view, "people I know, like and respect say it worked well for them" is a much HIGHER endorsement than "being biblical" :)
what if God told me to do something I thought was immoral? I guess I'd have a problem. But the fact I'd have a problem in such a hypothetical circumstance does not mean I have that problem now.
Well, I think that's perfectly ok! I've faced that question on a smaller scale eg. there are people I respect a lot, and because they're so often right about difficult questions, if I disagree with them, I will assume I'm likely missing something. And if it ever comes up, I am ready to admit that I think they're flat-out wrong about something, but it's hard to think about that in advance.
But that's based on your (presumed) experience that what God tells you is usually right?
I said, "I wouldn't like to follow a religion which included God telling me to do things I think are immoral". By which I mean especially blatant examples like "refusing to see a doctor". You said, that's silly, and I agree, except that some actual real people actually believe that and I don't want to belittle that (even though I think it's a really bad thing when it happens). And then you asked, what would I do if God asked me to do something immoral?
I didn't just start talking about that out of the blue, I answered because it seemed you were asking me that direct hypothetical question. Now I wonder -- is it the case that you assumed that God would never ask me to do anything ACTUALLY immoral (like the not seeing a doctor thing), and that was so obvious that you didn't need to say it? Because now I can see that might have been what you meant, but that's NOT obvious to me.
If you're assuming that God will only tell me to do things that seem immoral because they're actually good, but I'm just wrong about them, then it makes sense to say, I should pay more attention if a message apparently from God. But I seriously don't think that's the case. The right amount of attention to pay to new ideas isn't "infinitely much" and I don't think you can dodge that by saying "live in the moment" even if that's often useful advice -- and given that, there must be ways to be too open to being wrong and ways to be not open enough to realising you're wrong. And I'm fairly sure where my flaws are -- I don't think my flaws are "that looks horrifically immoral to me, but I missed that it's actually a good idea" which is what I'm imagining here -- I think my flaws are more likely to be "here's a large thing I'd not considered enough" and "here's something I think is a good thing in principle, but I need to stop being scared it's beyond my reach and act on it right now"...
Re: Tyrant gods
Date: 2014-12-12 08:59 pm (UTC)You seem to be talking there about people you know personally. But what about authors you have come to know, like and respect?
As you know, I currently stop a long, long way short of saying the Bible is in any sense a perfect book. On the other hand, I am gradually growing to know, like and respect the authors somewhat more. Which makes me more eager to pay attention to what they say worked well for them.
As a case in point, I'd invite you — if you've got a moment — to read Romans 1:18-32. I'd read that, and found it very hard to like Paul as its author. But then
Suddenly, I started liking Paul a lot more. And paying more attention to what he said on other matters.
Re: Tyrant gods
Date: 2014-12-12 09:34 pm (UTC)There happen to be more of the former than the latter, but I'm not sure why.
I am definitely interested in articles like that, that put biblical authors in context and pull out the reasons we SHOULD listen to them.
Re: Tyrant gods
Date: 2014-12-12 11:20 am (UTC)I recognise that postponing that was hopefully a good thing for you at the time, but I do want to add things that you probably already know, but I want to emphasise, for when you may think about it again.
I realise I'm not actually a reliable hotline to what God wants! :) But you can be humble in recognising when someone else, a non-Christian, has something valuable to say. And you can be confident in your own sense of God, in knowing when what you already think IS right and you SHOULDN'T second-guess yourself.
The church hierarchy isn't always right! I assume you know this in theory (for one thing, there's multiple churches!) And I think for you, like me, it's really hard to accept there's something important you think that people in positions of authority are wrong about, without confronting them directly about it. But that WILL inevitably come up -- it's BOUND to come up about some things, and even though it's hard you can say "I think I'm right about this even if I'm not absolutely sure, but changing people's mind isn't my immediate crusade".
But I think being gay is ok, being bi is ok, being poly is ok, not just "everyone sins and we forgive them" but actually ok, not a bad thing in any way. And I'm pretty sure if Jesus saw modern society he would agree without qualification, without hedging. There's lots of things I don't think I live up to, that I can imagine I MIGHT be called to account for, but if Jesus ever asks "so, did you trust in love and compassion and doing what your heart tells you is right, or did you hurt a lot of people by following a bunch of laws that made no sense because someone told you that's what God wanted, but you knew in your heart was wrong", I can't be sure, but I'll take my chances with the first option, not the second!
And also, I think it's fine to say that you can't address this issue right now. But also, I think it's wrong to say it doesn't matter until it affects you personally. If you think those things are sins, that will bubble up in the ways you treat other people, I think that really matters.
FWIW, I'm not saying you should do anything about this now. Likely the right thing is, just go on as you are, but bear in mind, this might be something you think is right but can't change people's minds on right now. But I don't think staying in your current church means you must accept this.
Re: Tyrant gods
Date: 2014-12-12 09:10 pm (UTC)And, for example, I know I regret the rare dalliances I had with casual sex in my youth. And, to turn around the traditional argument that one shouldn't have sex outside of marriage, I'm sorry I didn't work harder to stay in a relationship with people I'd had sex with. So I've certainly shifted my attitudes somewhat. Maybe they'll shift further; maybe not.
One thing I'm clear on, though — I should be much more careful about what I do than judgemental of what others do.
Re: Tyrant gods
Date: 2014-12-12 09:29 pm (UTC)I'm scared by even that much shift in position. But hearted by the last paragraph of this comment *shrug*
I know I regret the rare dalliances I had with casual sex in my youth.
*shrug* I know this is something people often enter into ill-considerdly and it goes very badly. But I know for other people, it's completely fine. My opinions may well shift too. I'm very open to giving and receiving advice about things that might usually be harmful. But resistant to blanket condemnations...
I should be much more careful about what I do than judgemental of what others do.
Yes! That comment should be engraved for everyone!
That's really right, for lots of reasons: partly that we can't control other people even if we're right; partly that we can guide them but only imperfectly, due to imperfect knowledge of them; partly that sometimes we're wrong; partly we might both be partially right about different things.